00:00:17.000
okay cool I guess I'll go ahead and get started then um hi and thank you all so
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much for coming to my talk here uh I'm Kwo and I started at New Relic just
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about months ago and it's my first developer job there uh for my talk today
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I'm going to first give a bit more context around where I'm coming from and
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my intentions for this talk um I'll then dive into what I see as the main challenges for being a junior developer
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and I'll talk about my tactics for how to overcome these challenges there is a lot that I want to cover but if you're
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taking notes and happen to miss something I have written a uh post for the new Relic blog that went up this
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morning that you can reference um and I also have a link to my slides at the
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end so how many people here are junior
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developers okay awesome cool um and how many people did something else
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professionally before they worked as developers nice okay so we are like
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amongst our own people here right very cool um for me being a developer is
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probably like the fourth or fifth career I've had at this point it's hard to keep
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track some of the other jobs I've had in the past are things like product Specialists tech support I used to work
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in a biology research lab and I also did some copy editing on the side so the thing is compared to people who have
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been coding since they were kids I am literally decades behind um this makes
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me just feel like I have so much to catch up on um however something I've realized is
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that being a developer is essentially about constantly learning new things and
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guess what I'm pretty good at that I'm really practice at it with picking up a
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new career and starting over and over again and so despite what my parents
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think I like to think that my previous lack of direction is now an
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asset the other thing I've realized over the last few months is that a lot of it can actually have nothing to do with
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coding if you've spent a lot of time doing something besides computer science
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that means you have more experience for all of the non-coding portions and that means you can leverage those skills and
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that experience to help your team while you get better at the technical
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aspects my thesis is that just because you switch careers doesn't mean you're
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starting over entirely and in fact you can still use those other skills that
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you have you may already know the different tactics I'll be talking about today so I
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hope I can prompt you to consider new angles and get excited to apply them as a junior developer there will be
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sections that are actually more targeted towards mentors but if you have a mentor and uh you know he or she doesn't happen
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to be here today maybe you can bring some of these ideas back to them and discuss
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for senior any senior developers that might be in the audience I hope to help you remember what it feels like to be on
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that Junior side of a mentoring relationship and think about ways that you can help your proteges feel valued
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in a very concrete kind of way I think there are two big reasons
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for why it's hard to be a junior developer first there's a ridiculous
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amount to learn how many people feel like that yeah like pretty much everyone here
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cool second I think it's also really hard to know how you can help your team
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and not just feel like this helpless little baby bird here I'll talk a little bit about these
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challenges and how to handle each of them in turn my three-step foolproof plan to
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tackling the fact that there's a ridiculous amount to learn is really all about not trying to do it all just on
00:04:31.880
your own getting people to want to help you in the first place can be a little bit
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of a hurdle sometimes depending on how supportive an environment you happen to be in I've been really lucky at New
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Relic but I think there are always things that you can do even if you feel a bit more isolated people fundamentally
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just aren't all that different wherever you go a lot of this boils down to so-called
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building relationship ships um but I prefer to think about it as really just getting to know people and making
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friends because of course friendship is
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Magic I personally find this pretty hard because I'm actually a pretty strong introvert um I fully expect to spend
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most of tonight like huddled in a ball like trying to recover from
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today but you know the thing is a lot of developers by and large are also pretty introverted as well
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and so sometimes it can be hard to try to get the conversation going um you know even if you're you know both really
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want to connect luckily at my last job I worked with PM in engineering and came
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up with a few hacks what I do is I try and pay
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attention to to try to remember small details that people have told me especially about their lives outside of
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work sometimes it's actually even easier for me to remember these details than
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people's names but usually people are pretty forgiving once I tell them I do
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actually remember talking to them for like two hours about their love for like
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antique banjo collecting or something like that this makes for much better
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conversations than your typical small talk another really dorky thing that I
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do um is that I actually sometimes mentally prepare stories to get a
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conversation going like right after a weekend I'll try to think of something interesting or odd
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that I did so that I'll have a non-generic answer ready for when someone asks how was your weekend
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otherwise I just kind of freeze up and just say oh good which is kind of a boring answer and doesn't really get
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conversation started does anybody else have that knee-jerk reaction sometimes yeah
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totally well with a story to tell what I find is that this can them prompt questions and get some back and forth
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started uh which breaks through any awkwardness there might
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be helping breakthrough awkwardness is also something that mentors can do a lot to help with mentors are really great
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for guiding newbies around team culture and history they can help make
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introductions and give advice on how to approach other people like what the two of you may have in common or who's a
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good person to ask about what also I think that if your company has a
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support team you should definitely make some good friends there support tends to
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be a little bit chronically undervalued but they probably know way more about the product than you do and if you think
00:07:47.280
about it they're very practiced at explaining the product to newbies like
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your fellow customers when I worked in tech support sometimes they would have Engineers
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Shadow us so that Engineers could learn how the customers actually used our product and use it to inform um design
00:08:05.039
decisions that they might have and I definitely always preferred the engineers that were really eager to
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learn from me another key component to getting people to want to help you is to
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demonstrate that you value the time that they're taking and so that you took a
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reasonable amount of time to get as far as you could on your own each time
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someone helps you you be ble to learn new tactics and push yourself just a little bit farther before the next time
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you have to ask a question again when you do ask for help you can also ask questions like if you're busy
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who else could I talk to about this when someone does help you you can always end with asking something like is
00:08:51.279
there somewhere I could have found this answer on my own and if the answer is no and there isn't any good reason it
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doesn't exist already you should add it when you do have someone's time try
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and think of ways to sort of push out and extend what you're learning from them at that point in time that way
00:09:11.519
you'll be equipped when a variation of that same question comes up again lastly for getting people to want
00:09:18.920
to help you something just as simple as showing your appreciation really goes the Long Way great mentors and teachers
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would of course probably do it regardless but I just think it never hurts to make
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people feel extra good about doing something that helps you making sure to
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notice when people have gone out of their way to help you encourages more of that to
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happen if you're working somewhere that's big enough where not everyone knows what everyone else is doing you
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can also do things like let people's managers know when they've been particularly helpful most managers like
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hearing good things about their reports and most people like their managers to know the good things they've done for
00:10:03.519
the team so it's just a nice thing to do all around we've covered step one now of
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getting people to want to help
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you step two is make it easy for them to help help them help you there are a few
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different ways you can do this I think actually that one of the
00:10:30.399
hardest parts to learning is just letting people see inside your head and
00:10:35.920
understand where you're at right now but this can be really hard in a field like programming where sometimes you might
00:10:42.399
not even have the vocabulary to express what it is that you don't understand because you don't understand it great
00:10:50.200
teachers can draw it out from you even when you're asking pretty vague questions but most people that you work
00:10:55.680
with probably aren't highly trained teachers so there are ways that you can make it easier for others to help you by
00:11:02.560
articulating the premises that you're working off of and the logic that you're using so that together you can narrow
00:11:09.639
down what it is that you don't understand or I'm missing you can say things like you had
00:11:16.720
me up until such and such a point or I'm confused because I thought you said this
00:11:24.760
and then this but it doesn't seem to lead to this point
00:11:31.120
this is a good General format for describing problems that you might have say what you're trying to do and why so
00:11:38.360
that someone can jump in if that's not even actually the right goal to be aiming for in the first place also
00:11:45.600
describe your current problem and what you've tried already sometimes people might jump in
00:11:51.240
quickly with their idea of what the answer to your question is already but it think it's still good to be prepared
00:11:57.880
regardless and if if you're a mentor just consider that you should check to make sure you understand the question
00:12:04.920
before you go ahead and answer it when I worked in tech support the best clients actually put all of this
00:12:11.279
information upfront in their ticket which saved us a ton of time on the back and forth from just trying to even
00:12:18.040
figure out what the question was remember that Just Having the
00:12:23.920
courage to say I don't know is a strength Expos cling your own ignorance
00:12:30.079
feels really scary so I'm always practicing actually saying things like
00:12:35.920
wait I don't even know what that word means say this all the time but it is
00:12:42.480
something that's vital to understanding what people are talking about the sooner I tell people I don't actually know
00:12:48.800
what's going on the sooner I can get to actually learning and
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working of all the advice I got when I started at New Relic this one is my very
00:13:01.360
favorite one of the best things that mentors can do when Junior developers are confused is even just validating
00:13:08.519
that feeling being honest and saying this is confusing for me too it always
00:13:14.880
without fail makes me feel better when someone I expect to know the answer
00:13:19.959
actually says they don't they don't know it either and then it becomes this team
00:13:25.079
effort to figure out how to get out of this hole of ignorance together
00:13:30.279
it's also cool because when you work with someone that also doesn't know the answer you'll frequently learn new
00:13:35.920
debugging techniques that you can apply yourself next time now I want you to think back to the
00:13:43.760
last few times you asked someone for
00:13:51.800
help okay how many of you after you got help from someone heard something from
00:13:58.040
them that was like did that help a few people yeah I get this all
00:14:04.959
the time and I realize that this is because most of us are really needy and
00:14:11.079
want validation that's because and so my favorite feedback what I get from people
00:14:17.040
um is usually people telling me that they actually used any advice that I gave them so when you tell people
00:14:23.639
specifically what it is they did that helped you they'll know what they can do more of for example it really helped me
00:14:32.399
when you walked me through how to use these tools with this example or it
00:14:38.320
really helps me to be the driver when we pair program because I absorb more than
00:14:43.839
when I'm just shadowing one way of looking at mentoring relationships that I really
00:14:50.079
like is from a book club we had at New Relic when I first started called managers as
00:14:56.440
mentors the idea there is that mentoring should not be about this traditional
00:15:02.160
mindset of a one-way transmission of information and instead it's the
00:15:08.040
mentor's responsibility to create a safe environment and remove any barriers to
00:15:13.519
learning so that their mentees can speak up about any fears they might have and
00:15:18.959
not be afraid of failing this way they can learn a lot
00:15:24.160
more and a lot faster I know for me making the move
00:15:30.560
from just working on my own projects that no one was depending on to working
00:15:36.000
on something that actual people were paying us actual money for was pretty
00:15:43.639
terrifying sure we have this idea of failing fast but it's so hard to apply
00:15:49.560
it when you don't feel secure what helped me was all the
00:15:55.000
support that I got from mentors sharing their stories about how they' mess things up too and the idea that it's not
00:16:02.079
a matter of if you break production but when and when you do make mistakes your
00:16:10.199
team should have processes set up in place to make it easy to recover quickly
00:16:15.759
and ways to try to prevent that same mistake from happening again if none of
00:16:20.800
these processes exist already you should try to help establish them because if
00:16:25.920
just one person can ruin everything thing that's a pretty big problem for
00:16:31.440
the entire team something I'm a really big fan of
00:16:36.560
as well is just having a direct conversation upfront about someone's learning style along with the other
00:16:43.440
person's teaching style this way you can try to sync them up and talk through any
00:16:49.399
mismatches ahead of time before there's any conflict it's great when mentors show
00:16:54.639
that they're open to feedback along the way as well so that they can continue it ating and adapting their style to match
00:17:02.079
whatever will help the junior learn best it's also really important to talk
00:17:08.240
about how you prefer to be interrupted my mentor at New Relic David told me that I could interrupt him
00:17:15.160
pretty much any time and because he was really clear and direct with me when he
00:17:20.760
couldn't help me right then and still always gave me some other resource to try I had that much more confidence in
00:17:27.760
it being okay to interrupt rather than bottling it all up and just saving it
00:17:33.039
for our designated weekly meetings when I started David's desk was
00:17:39.679
right next to mine so that even when I was talking to other people he could sort of lightly listen in and jump in
00:17:47.200
whenever it was clear to him that I was missing something fundamental as my mentor he had a better
00:17:53.760
overall understanding of where my knowledge level was at so he could help
00:17:58.919
others help me too if as a mentor part of your
00:18:05.360
philosophy is to let people struggle this is also something that's good to make clear
00:18:10.760
upfront it's really good to talk about this because that way you can let the Juniors know that you are intentionally
00:18:17.440
doing this and it is out of a faith in them rather than setting them up to fail
00:18:22.919
or having misplaced expectations just being reminded that
00:18:27.960
you expect to be hard goes really far towards dispelling any sense of imposter
00:18:33.280
syndrome where you might have this sinking feeling that it should be easier
00:18:38.360
but that's wrong it's supposed to be hard finally I think it's ideal if you
00:18:44.640
can push up responsibility for deadlines the junior developer's job is to keep
00:18:49.840
everyone up to dat so that no one is surprised by how much work is left to do
00:18:55.240
on one project a couple months ago when I was freaking out because it felt like it was taking me forever to learn even
00:19:02.159
just the basics of D3 one of our project managers came to me and said that shuffling resources is his job so that I
00:19:10.520
could go back to learning and struggling and if at any point the project deadline was in danger the burden wasn't entirely
00:19:17.799
on my shoulders now we have covered these
00:19:23.240
first two steps we are just a little bit halfway through so I just want to take a real
00:19:28.400
quick break humor me if you could all just sort of sit forward in your chairs a little bit thank you and go ahead and
00:19:36.600
just put your arms behind your back like this and just try to stretch and pull your shoulders down and back a little
00:19:43.320
bit just try to counteract a little bit of the terrible posture a lot of us
00:19:48.520
probably have when we're hunched over a computer okay cool feels better I do
00:19:54.280
this a lot when we do standups actually because it's like a good time as any to stretch and be slightly more
00:20:02.360
ergonomic all right back to where we were the final step in tackling how much
00:20:09.159
there is to learn is much like how you'd approach any other gnarly technical problem narrow your
00:20:15.960
scope mentors are highly helpful here too because they can help prioritize
00:20:21.120
what to learn next for example one of my things is that I still actually need to
00:20:26.760
build a rail zap from the beginning know that it's important to deliver
00:20:32.799
recommendations at the right time if a mentor gets really excited about yet
00:20:38.080
another new thing to add to the junior developer plate and just sort of blurts it out right then this can sometimes be
00:20:45.240
taken a little bit like wow it must be really important to be told right away
00:20:50.600
that I need to know this maybe I should know this already which at least for me
00:20:55.760
can sometimes lead to a little bit of a death spiral of
00:21:01.600
self-doubt you also have to match up learning style with a tutorial style
00:21:07.159
this is important because a lot of programming tutorials well they're kind
00:21:13.120
of like this how to draw an owl step one draw some circles step two
00:21:21.360
draw the rest of the owl how many people have done tutorials that are like
00:21:26.480
this yeah well even on more detailed tutorials
00:21:33.320
there are differences like whether the work is goal oriented or not for me it's
00:21:39.000
actually harder to stay motivated when I don't have a specific thing that I'm trying to accomplish I like structure
00:21:46.640
and being to free form actually means that I'll get bored for example I took
00:21:52.279
calculus in high school and it was fun and interesting but it wasn't until I took physics in college that I was like
00:22:00.200
oh that's what calculus was invented for but that's just me and other people
00:22:06.960
might be similar or very different also in terms of content my
00:22:13.159
personal view is that the highest value areas are things like team processes for
00:22:18.279
code review and Version Control like git and specific product uh product knowledge over more generalized
00:22:25.039
programming knowledge this might be be a bit controversial but I think less useful
00:22:31.679
are actually things like getting too much into optimizing your tools your environment or even learning tons of
00:22:38.159
keyboard shortcuts at least to start keyboard shortcuts are fun and useful
00:22:44.919
but let's be honest right now how fast I can type is not the limiting factor and
00:22:51.320
how fast I can complete a future so that wraps up my ideas for how
00:22:57.279
to tackle this first challenge of how there's so much to learn as a junior developer next I'll talk about ways that
00:23:04.279
even Junior developers can help their team
00:23:12.400
immediately knowing how to help your team is hard because maybe you feel like you're a drag on your team's
00:23:18.840
productivity with how much help you need right then how many people have felt like
00:23:26.080
this well in one of the first convers ations that David and I had I actually pretty much straight up asked him um how
00:23:34.279
did you get stuck with me to his and nurel's everlasting credit
00:23:39.720
he immediately reassured me that it wasn't that he got stuck with me but that he wanted to learn to be a good
00:23:45.919
Mentor himself so it was from there that I realized ah even my ignorance can be
00:23:52.760
helpful for the team when it gives them opportunities to practice things like mentoring
00:23:59.640
also even if you are a junior developer your technical contributions are still
00:24:05.840
important yes you may be working on features that someone else may make
00:24:11.320
faster but in a world where there's never enough Junior Developers for all the you know or just developers in
00:24:17.400
general for all the Developer jobs that are out there it's not actually necessarily a choice between a junior
00:24:23.960
developer building it slowly and a senior developer building it really quick
00:24:29.200
it's a choice between having something built and not having it at
00:24:34.960
all don't forget either that everyone started out at your point at some at some time and you won't be at your
00:24:41.919
current stage forever as my Southern friend likes to draw no one comes out of their mama's
00:24:48.279
womb knowing how to code just think about that for a
00:24:56.240
minute so onward to some of the other non-technical ways you can help your team right away first I really strongly
00:25:04.679
believe that questions are basically the junior developer superpower and as we
00:25:10.600
all know with great power comes great responsibility fresh eyes are helpful
00:25:17.000
but you can specifically figure out how to be an extra helpful set of fresh eyes with the use of skillful
00:25:23.600
questions good questions are invaluable for highlighting assumptions and helping the team avoid dead ends which helps you
00:25:30.880
all move faster questions like are we working on the right thing or is there a reason
00:25:38.720
we're doing it this way this is something that came up in my old job too because sometimes this uncovered an
00:25:46.120
actual misunderstanding about a feature's requirements where like an off-hand comment from a client email got
00:25:53.480
interpreted as a musthave item getting rid of these kinds of things saves
00:25:58.760
everyone a lot of time and disappointment has anyone here ever worked as a consultant or project
00:26:05.320
manager at all so you probably have similar stories like that
00:26:10.799
too of course you do want to ask your questions in a way that won't put people
00:26:16.039
on the defensive if someone hisses at you that's probably not a good
00:26:21.720
sign try to express humility since you're asking these questions from a place where it's because you want to
00:26:28.360
learn rather than assuming that you already know you can also think about questions
00:26:34.559
that other non-engineering people might ask like your sales or support teams
00:26:39.799
getting these answers earlier on gives your team a jump start on looping in other teams as needed and if the only
00:26:46.279
answers your team has are pretty vague that's an opportunity to dig further for greater
00:26:53.279
Clarity okay we're two-thirds of the way through the outline now
00:26:58.520
on the other side from asking questions providing constructed feedback is really important too if you've had another
00:27:05.600
career before now this is a skill that I am sure you have already practiced giving useful feedback to the
00:27:13.080
right person in the right Venue at the right time is hard for a lot of people
00:27:19.760
for me when I worked in tech support we'd frequently do quality reviews of each other's work to try to improve the
00:27:25.679
customer support experience and we'd also would just do General peer feedback every few quarters which meant that I
00:27:32.240
got a lot of practice at phrasing feedback in a way that wouldn't lose me any friends
00:27:39.640
hopefully before offering feedback I like to spend some time thinking about what would be useful to the person
00:27:45.720
receiving the feedback what is it that they want what are they trying to
00:27:51.399
do you always also get bonus points for bringing suggestions for Solutions with
00:27:56.760
you it's hard hard sometimes to refrain from nitpicking just for the sake of having something to say but it's worth
00:28:03.840
it to increase the value that people get from listening to you you just want to
00:28:08.880
have a really high personal ratio of useful to not useful things to
00:28:15.799
say something else I've been trying lately is to give positive feedback whenever there's an opportunity I don't
00:28:22.679
mean like fake positive compliments or anything like that at all but just that
00:28:27.760
it's a lot easier in most cases to complain about something than to remember to speak up when there are good
00:28:34.200
things to talk about my hope is that this is helpful in the longer term so
00:28:39.960
that I can build up a general reputation for being a positive person and any negative feedback I have will be taken
00:28:46.840
more seriously on the other hand sometimes giving good feedback can also mean just
00:28:53.760
stating I don't have an opinion on this topic so that you withdraw your self from the pool of people weighing in and
00:29:00.480
makes life a lot easier for whoever is in charge of getting the group to a
00:29:05.880
consensus so now we've covered two strategies for helping your
00:29:11.279
team lastly there's a lot you can do to make your team look good to other teams
00:29:17.159
it isn't all that hard it helps your team feel good and it helps other teams feel good too about working with your
00:29:25.640
team one of the common areas this can come up in is in any demo or review te
00:29:31.480
meetings your team might have you can give awesome demos just by being thoughtful and prepared think about why
00:29:39.080
this change matters to your audience why should they care and think about how you can show the before and after doing
00:29:45.600
things like grabbing screenshots so you can show new and old side by side or
00:29:51.080
gathering metrics to show why the thing that your team did is actually a big deal demos are also good for getting
00:29:58.159
full credit for your team for everything that they've done even ones that aren't easily
00:30:03.559
visible you can do things like talk about Corner cases and you know choices
00:30:08.840
that you either decided to do something about right now or have consciously chosen to delay so that it shows other
00:30:16.440
team shows these other teams that you've been thoughtful about your impact to them like the supportability of a new
00:30:22.480
feature you've released I like to over prepare so I almost always write a script which is
00:30:30.240
sometimes a literal word for word script but more often it's just a list of what I want to show in a particular order so
00:30:38.159
that it flows well and I don't end up having to backtrack because I've forgotten
00:30:43.679
something I also like to do a test run through so that this way I'll know
00:30:49.080
everything I need to get pre-loaded onto my computer which makes the demo really efficient and less prone to
00:30:56.919
errors in general making an effort to be responsive thorough and empathetic
00:31:03.760
really goes a long way I'm really proud of the time that someone on our support team at New Relic told me I was her
00:31:10.760
favorite engineer to work with mostly just because I was being really responsive all this just helps people
00:31:17.679
feel heard and knock down any stereotypes that Engineers don't care about what other people care about and
00:31:25.200
so this way when your team needs their help they'll be there for you
00:31:30.720
too that wraps up my ideas for how to tackle the challenge of figuring out how you can help your team even when you're
00:31:36.799
a junior developer before I finish up my talk I do want to mention a few caveats and
00:31:43.000
pitfalls to avoid I'm hoping that mentors in particular will help out with watching
00:31:48.240
out for these sometimes I think there's a bit of an issue in the tech community of
00:31:54.279
undervaluing non-technical skills and a lot of I've talked about is essentially
00:31:59.760
using your non-technical skills to help yourself move forward the thing is you
00:32:05.880
just don't want to be assumed to just be the secretary which I don't mean as a
00:32:11.039
Dison secretaries at all it's just not the job that I'm working
00:32:16.360
towards there's also a phenomenon called the Girl Scout tax which comes about
00:32:22.200
because we have a stereotype and expectation that women are helpful
00:32:27.279
unfortunately this leads to a lot of women not getting credit for the help that they provide because supposedly
00:32:34.639
that's just what women do they're helpful this is just one of those unconscious things that we probably all
00:32:41.399
do from time to time and so we should all try to watch out for it so that everyone gets recognized and appreciated
00:32:48.399
for the work that they do you just don't want to get sidelined or pushed into a role you're not
00:32:55.480
interested in everything I've talked about today is from the standpoint that you're willing to do whatever is best
00:33:01.679
for your team in the short term but you all need to be doing what's best for everyone longer term as well which is to
00:33:08.200
help you grow as a developer ultimately keep focused on
00:33:14.559
whatever your end goal is whether that's getting better at coding working on bigger features or learning about the
00:33:21.600
market and Industry this way you can consciously choose what things you'll want do that
00:33:27.440
willing bring you closer to the goal and not do things that will move you farther away from
00:33:33.919
it these are some recommendations for further reading the first two are books
00:33:39.679
that are actually pretty quick and easy reads team geek uh is written by a couple of Google engineering managers
00:33:46.080
who actually co-founded the Google's engineering office here in Chicago and
00:33:51.399
that second book The Upside of down is a good book if you feel like you're being held back by a fear of fa
00:33:58.440
failure the other four are blog posts that I also found really interesting and full of good career advice for junior
00:34:06.919
developers so here's the full outline of everything I've talked about today I think there are two main challenges in
00:34:12.960
being a junior developer for the problem of there being so much to learn the three-step plan is
00:34:19.960
to get people to want to help you make it easy for them to help and narrow the
00:34:25.240
scope of what you're trying to cover for the problem of not knowing how to help your team always remember that good
00:34:32.679
questions are the junior developer superpower you can also do a lot by
00:34:38.119
giving good feedback and making your team look good in front of other
00:34:43.440
teams in conclusion we talk a lot about the benefits of diversity but if you're
00:34:49.399
the one that's bringing diversity to your team that can be hard because the typical narrative won't use your
00:34:56.399
particular strengths that much because by definition they're different as my first boss told me we
00:35:03.960
can and should work on our areas for development but it's really your strengths that you can lean on most
00:35:10.640
heavily to get you where you want to go so to all the junior developers and
00:35:15.960
career switchers out there I just want to say you deserve to feel confidence in yourself as a person place your
00:35:23.280
confidence in your proven ability to learn over your current level of coding knowledge it's only a matter of time and
00:35:31.040
I hope I've helped you shorten that amount of time as a junior developer and to someday when you'll be mentoring
00:35:36.880
Junior developers yourself thank you